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Topic: Wrestling?

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Harrier on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:42 am

Not? What is it instead? Simply training effort? I honestly don´t know.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Tatyina on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:45 am

Ryback's gotten a lot better.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Harrier on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:49 am

Tatyina wrote:Ryback's gotten a lot better.

Indeed. But I am sure that he simply does not have the amount of wrestling talent that Big Show has and training won´t equalize that, regardless of the time invested. And there is nothing wrong with that, Big Show was marvelously good as young man in the ring.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Old_Man_Tai on Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:55 am

"Marvelously good"


PSSSSSSSHHHH


Rewatch some of those WCW matches young man. Big Show was given like, barely any real training (seriously, before joining WCW, he only knew how to do a collar and elbow tie up taught to him by Raven, according to Show himself.) and was super green as super fuck for his first like 3 years. He was taught like, the absolute bare essentials and was, at his best in WCW, nothing more than a novelty as being a really big guy who could do a dropkick.

It wasn't until Big Show came to WWE that he actually really learned how to do anything, once he was told that being a novelty act wouldn't cut it. Even then, he had matches that ranged from passable at best (only against workers that knew what they were doing, like The Rock and Undertaker) and piss poor matches (the majority of his work)

Honestly, it wasn't until his feud with Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle that Big Show actually, FINALLY, came into his own. Late 2002-2004 was Show's prime. Aside from that time period, he's extremely hit and miss, ranging from great matches (Hell in a Cell 2012 match against Sheamus) to downright terrible (any match he ever does with Mark Henry)

Why you're even comparing Ryback and Big Show I don't know. Ryback was green as fuck for both his Nexus run and his 2012-2013 run. He HAS gotten better, but its been a struggle every step of the way. The only two matches he's had that qualify as being good were ones that also involved FAR better workers (his TLC 2012 match with Team Hell No vs The Shield and his Elimination Chamber match with Cena and Sheamus vs The Shield)

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Harrier on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:53 am

Old_Man_Tai wrote:"Marvelously good"


PSSSSSSSHHHH


Rewatch some of those WCW matches young man. Big Show was given like, barely any real training (seriously, before joining WCW, he only knew how to do a collar and elbow tie up taught to him by Raven, according to Show himself.) and was super green as super fuck for his first like 3 years. He was taught like, the absolute bare essentials and was, at his best in WCW, nothing more than a novelty as being a really big guy who could do a dropkick.

It wasn't until Big Show came to WWE that he actually really learned how to do anything, once he was told that being a novelty act wouldn't cut it. Even then, he had matches that ranged from passable at best (only against workers that knew what they were doing, like The Rock and Undertaker) and piss poor matches (the majority of his work)

Honestly, it wasn't until his feud with Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle that Big Show actually, FINALLY, came into his own. Late 2002-2004 was Show's prime. Aside from that time period, he's extremely hit and miss, ranging from great matches (Hell in a Cell 2012 match against Sheamus) to downright terrible (any match he ever does with Mark Henry)

Why you're even comparing Ryback and Big Show I don't know. Ryback was green as fuck for both his Nexus run and his 2012-2013 run. He HAS gotten better, but its been a struggle every step of the way. The only two matches he's had that qualify as being good were ones that also involved FAR better workers (his TLC 2012 match with Team Hell No vs The Shield and his Elimination Chamber match with Cena and Sheamus vs The Shield)

Guys of this size and sheer volume that can do a cleanish drop kick are pretty rare, I can only think of the Undertaker, Kane, Yokozuna and Bam Bam Bigelow after a quick overview of the big wrestlers that come to mind. Surely not Giant Gonzales, Andre the Giant or the Great Khali. Daniel Bryan, CM Punk and Cesaro combined would have been unable to teach a clean drop kick to one of these guys, and they have/had the same disease and sheer volume as Big Show, so it is an issue of talent and not training. I am not saying that he is a ring general, but no liability for other wrestlers or unbearable to watch in a ring most of the time. He´s probaby on a Cena level in ring wise, and both had reasonably good matches together when the are in a feud. And in 2002, he was 30. Pretty young for a pro wrestler. As you already said yourself at age 30 Ryback was terrible, with a capital T.


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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Tatyina on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:59 am

That is because Cena makes everyone he fights look good.

Ryback has really come around, in my opinion. He's never going to be Daniel Bryan or someone who is a great technical wrestler, but he can put on a show that's entertaining, he can get the crowd hyped and he certainly is no longer a liability.

He's definitely earned this run and I think in a few more (maybe 1-2) he could definitely legitimately contend for the world title.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Old_Man_Tai on Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:15 pm

Harrier wrote:

Guys of this size and sheer volume that can do a cleanish drop kick are pretty rare, I can only think of the Undertaker, Kane, Yokozuna and Bam Bam Bigelow after a quick overview of the big wrestlers that come to mind. Surely not Giant Gonzales, Andre the Giant or the Great Khali. Daniel Bryan, CM Punk and Cesaro combined would have been unable to teach a clean drop kick to one of these guys, and they have/had the same disease and sheer volume as Big Show, so it is an issue of talent and not training.  I am not saying that he is a ring general, but no liability for other wrestlers or unbearable to watch in a ring most of the time. He´s probaby on a Cena level in ring wise, and both had reasonably good matches together when the are in a feud. And in 2002, he was 30. Pretty young for a pro wrestler. As you already said yourself at age 30 Ryback was terrible, with a capital T.


Right so Yokozuna could never dropkick and was never that agile a wrestler. Also, I feel the need to point out that, when Big Show was throwing out dropkicks, it was early in his WCW career (like, year 1-2) and he weighed FAR less than he later would. His first year in WCW he was in what was probably the best shape of his entire career. Had to be only around the 380-400 pound mark for legit (though they billed him at 475) but he was in incredible shape, I wouldn't be surprised if he was under 400.

Anyway, point is by like, 1998 he got a lot fatter and couldn't pull the move off anymore. He lost a little weight before coming to WWE, did a shitty dropkick once, then got super fat in 2006. Big Show was also in his early 20's at the time. He was young, the slimmest he'd ever been, and could throw a novelty dropkick. That does not make him super talented. It makes him someone who started out green and grass with a novelty move and later became talented.

Saying he's on Cena's level is ridiculous, since Cena has had legitimate great matches and held his own against other great talents. Saying he can't wrestle has become a worthless complaint.

Like Tat said, Ryback HAS gotten better, and if given time and proper matches, he will continue to improve. He's proven he can go longer matches, now he needs to expand his skill set so he can make those longer matches worthwhile.

As for 30 being young in wrestling, that is debatable.

Alot of pro wrestlers tend to get started around like, the 18-22 age, when they are young and can handle bumps and such. This means that, by the time they hit Rybacks age, 33, they have around 11-15 years of bumps on their bodies, and would like to slow down or even consider retiring.

Case in point:

Chris Jericho temporarily retired from wrestling at the age of 35 in 2005, leaving until the end of 2007.

Mick Foley semi-retired in 2000, at the age of 35.

Big Show temporarily retired from pro wrestling in 2006, at the age of 34.

CM Punk retired from pro wrestling in 2014, at the age of 35.

Trish Stratus retired in 2006 at age 30

Lita retired in 2006 at age 31

Lance Storm retired in 2005 at age 36

Bill Goldberg retired in 2004 at age 36

Brock Lesnar temporarily retired in 2004 at age 26

There are others I'm sure. True, some of these were temporary retirements and Jericho and Big Show came back and Lesnar came back and Mick did the occasional return matches, but all those people, around the mid 30's, were beat up, tired from travel, and needed a break and they chose to retire until they were healed up.

Point of that is that 30 is not a spring chicken age in wrestling.

Now that doesn't mean that Ryback, at 33, is a lost cause. Diamond Dallas Page after all, started his in ring career at 36, after years of being a manager, and did an AWESOME job during his career.


.....This took WAY LONGER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE. Point is, Ryback's getting better, Big Show doing a dropkick wasn't all that special, Bacon is good.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Harrier on Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:57 pm

Uhm, a 550+ pound guy doing a wicked belly to belly suplex and leg drop like Yokozuna is not that agile. I guess most people of his weight class could not even get up easily if offered money for it.

Cena is an above average wrestler, a 6/10 so to say and yes, he can hold himself with the really good guys, but never as the main protagonist of a match. Most of the stuff he does outside of his comfort zone looks kind of clumsy, and he still needs a wrestler at least a little better than him for a really good match, like Cesaro or Kevin Owens recently. Loudly calling does not make you a ring general, it makes you a mainstay on botchamania. Granted, he can bust out some good moves if he feels like it or if it´s PPV time, I personally like the flying legdrop beside it often missing.

Ric Flair seriously retired with 59. Really Wink .
Terry Funk, uhm...How many retirement tours have happened with Terry Funk?
Hulk Hogan retired with 53. Kind of.
RvD, 44. Still not retired.
Kevin Nash made his last appearance in the Indy scene 2014. At the age of 53, he appeared at a major WWE PPV in an active role.
John Cena, 38. Still not retired.
Kane, 48. Still not retired.

There are as many examples of old wrestlers as of those who retired young. Wrestling is very taxing, but since people had to come away from the juice and the really dangerous moves getting banned or restricted, the retirement age has probably gone up considerably.

But I am also curious why WWE does not have really young, male wrestlers around the age of 25 + or - a year, on their shows.

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by Old_Man_Tai on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:22 pm

RVD DID temporarily retire from like, 2007 to 2010, aside from a few one off matches here and there.

Nash retired like, 5 years ago, and has made one off's and rare one time matches since. Besides, he's been semi retired since like, 2006. He saved his money, so he only works if he feels the money is worth it. Retirement doesn't mean sitting home forever and doing a one off every 8 months doesn't make you an active wrestler the way a full time guy is.

Some of your examples are off by the way. I picked guys who retired on their own by their choice, as opposed to guys like Jamie Noble who had to retire due to injury.

Guys like Kane, Big Show, Mark Henry and Sting are good examples of guys who got old and still wrestled because they enjoyed it and wanted to stay.

Ric Flair and Terry Funk though keep working because they need money. Flair owes more money in taxes to the IRS than you and I will ever make, and that isn't including paying his court fees and various alimony and other payments to his various ex wives, plus his other lawsuits against him.

Terry Funk just never saved much and often took lesser paying gigs for reasons known only to him. Guy's not a millionaire by his own admission. He takes matches for high prices.

Hulk Hogan was in a great position when he was 50 in 2003. He retired, had his money, had just finished this awesome 2002-2003 run where he won a world title and had the legit best matches of his entire career, bar none, could still do one off big money matches against HBK and Orton, and things were nice.

Then his horrible wife divorced him and took half his money, his horrible daughter tried to make a horrible music album and he spent a shit ton of money on that, and his horrible son wrecked a car and put his friend in the hospital and went to jail and Hogan had to foot the bill for the legal fees and got hit with another law suit as a result. Thus, he ended up joining TNA to milk them for every dime he could.

Most of these old guys WANT to retire, but they either never saved money like they should have in their best days or just never made enough money to begin with and now have to bust their ass in their old age for a paycheck, like the poor Rock and Roll Express. They need money, and all of their experience is in pro wrestling so they just keep doing it to pay the bills. The Wrestler was more accurate than people want to admit.

As for WWE not having young people:

Neville is 29

Bray Wyatt is 28

Dean Ambrose is 29

Seth Rollins is 29

Bo Dallas is 25

Roman Reigns is only 30

Usos are 30

Rusev is 29

Paige is 23

Big E is 29

Tyler Breeze is 27

WWE also has had guys like Carlito Cool, John Morrison, The Miz, John Cena, Randy Orton, Dolph Ziggler, and Chris Masters on the roster in their early 20's (Dolph's been around since 2005, Orton and Cena since 2002) It's not their fault they got older.

They hired Rene Dupree when he was like, 19.

WWE has young people. They've always had younger talent. They just feel older than they are because we seem them week in week out over and over year after year after year. They are old in TV years.


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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

Post by SleeperAgent94 on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:40 pm

I just cant wait to see The Green Arrow vs Stardust, and Undertaker vs Lesner

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Re: Topic: Wrestling?

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